With many of us currently spending more time than ever at home with our partners, it’s no wonder our relationships might be feeling the strain. Host Amelia Phillips speaks to relationship psychologist Emma Cholakians to find out how we can stay emotionally connected with our partner and keep the spark alive, even during trying times.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
After dinner when I clear the table, I have my system where I get all the dirty dishes and I put them in the sink in a nice big pile all piled up. And then once they’re in there, turn on the tap and I rinse them and put them in the dishwasher. Tim, on the other hand, likes to take one plate at a time, leave the tap running, rinse it, and put it in the dishwasher.
And I just think that is such a big waste of water. And we drive each other nuts arguing over our different methods. And the other thing I’ve noticed since Covid is that I’ve just got no space to myself right now. Like every time I turn around, he’s just there and he’s six foot eight. So there’s like a lot of man there.
And don’t get me wrong, I love him to bits, but sometimes I just need some space.
This is Healthy Her with Amelia Phillips, and in this special series on navigating Covid 19 with kids, we’re going to explore the impact Covid is having on marriages and relationships. Already there have been reports of a spike in applications for divorce in China. And British lawyers are predicting a similar phenomenon, will hit the uk.
Lockdown may be a pressure test on a marriage that some are completely unprepared for, and experts are raising concerns that this could irreversibly damage. Intimate relationships. Kind of in similar ways that natural disasters have been known to, to discuss this with me is relationship psych. Emma, Sheila, thanks for coming on today, Emma.
Thank you for having me. So you’ve actually continued to practice through covid 19, probably like we are now, over, over video or phone. Have you noticed an increase in relationship tensions since the lockdown laws have been in place? Not necessarily due to Covid. Um, I guess, you know, couples are still presenting for therapy.
But the couples that are coming in, um, generally what they are talking about and what they want therapy for are existing issues that were present, uh, pre covid. And so do you think that covid is one of those things that can almost amplify. A relationship in one way or the other. So if you’re all loved up, it might amplify to make you feel or the more loved up.
Or if you are the flip side, going through a rocky patch, it might amplify that. Definitely. So one thing that, um, any form of stressful situation can do is it can really highlight either the strengths in a relationship or the vulnerabilities. So, Let’s just say for example, um, a couple already have difficulties with how they interact because of financial stress.
So, you know, you add to something like Covid on top of it where there is even more uncertainty about, uh, people’s jobs or job, you know, security. That’s just gonna add another layer of pressure that’s already existing. So, You know what that can lead to is more disagreements, um, more disconnection and you know, just overall stress within the dynamic of the, of the relationship.
Oh, that’s really interesting. So you are saying that you haven’t seen necessarily a shift in the types of issues, it’s just more pressure on those existing issues. Is that correct? Pretty much, yeah. And I guess I’m talking about it from a personal perspective, but um, the couples that I’ve been seeing, those that are in positions where, Things have been tough.
Really, this has just kind of made it tougher. And what are those issues? You, you spoke of finances as one example. Are there other issues that have been a common thread that you’ve noticed? Conflict management, um, and quality time are two of the big things that come up. So couples that have difficulties being able to navigate through difficult conversations or, you know, come to a place of agreement is a, is a big thing.
So, This, Um, I guess this obviously ties into the idea of quality time as well. Is that because you are confined to close quarters? Um, it’s not, I mean, you’re spending a lot of time together, but it’s not necessarily quality time. And that in itself creates a little bit of disruption between how you feel about yourself and how you feel about the relationship.
And why would it not be quality time? I mean, you’re at home together. What are, what are some traps that couples can fall into that makes it not quality time? It depends on what the couple is trying to juggle. So let’s just say for example, you’ve got both parents at home trying to work. You’ve got kids at home that you’re trying to homeschool.
Um, there’s obviously so many different blurred roles and boundaries that are going on, and your head might be elsewhere, so you’re not necessarily mindful about. what it means to spend time, good time together as a, As a couple. So just the two of you because of all those competing interests. Yeah. It’s just all that crappy stuff that you have to get through.
You’ve basically got the stress of work, the stress of kids all in the one space. You’re not really gonna have a lot of love for each other when you’re in that position, are you? Exactly. I’ve been really missing date nights actually. Hubby and I will try to have a date night at least once a month, you know, ideally fortnightly, and I’ve been really missing having those quality moments together.
I wonder if during this time you, you, we just haven’t been able to steal those, those special moments together. Well, because we’re so accustomed to being able to potentially get, get away where, you know, there’s a point of difference from you’re getting out of the home that you’ve been stuck in to be able to go out and have dinner, like that’s been taken away so, There isn’t the flexibility to go out and enjoy some time, like a couple of hours together uninterrupted because you are living, sleeping, breathing, schooling, working all in the same space.
it doesn’t sound very romantic, that’s for sure. Um, so let’s talk about divorce application rates in China. I mean, there there’ve been reports that they’re going up. Why do you think that is? I think the biggest thing is, again, it’s that confined space stuff. So because you are sharing a, you know, a space with someone, um, so intensely where you don’t have your outlets that you would normally have, um, it shines a light on the things that aren’t necessarily going right.
So conflict goes up. Um, you’re not spending as much nice time together. You’re getting on each other’s nerves. Um, and you know, when it feels like it’s, it’s unending or you don’t know when things are gonna change, I think it just makes it, I mean, for some people, the exit button of saying, Let’s just, let’s just end this, um, seems like a, an easy thing to do.
You spoke just before about conflict resolution and how conflict management can be a real issue. What do you suggest to coach those mums out there that are saying, You know what, we are, you know, pissing each other off a lot at the moment, and we are kind of having these little bus stops quite regularly.
How can we stop that from happening, or at least reduce the intensity of. That’s a good question and an important one. I think. Um, we, we, one thing that’s really important to understand when it comes to the cycles that we get stuck in is, I like to use the analogy of an infinity loop. So understanding what is it that triggers off a fight.
And what is the response that we get to that? Because depending on the cycle that we get stuck in is that we may be triggered, we respond in a certain way. Our partner then responds to that response, and it’s just a back and forth where whatever the problem may be isn’t necessarily being addressed.
You’re literally just reacting to the reaction. And I think it’s often they can be these repetitive, what I call hot button topics. You know, say for example, one of you feels like the other one’s not pulling their weight with the kids, for example. Um, you know, it’s often a repetitive conversation. And do you find that that infinite loop or that repetition means that those conflicts can just get into the red zone so much faster?
Exactly. just because it means that, you know, the, those unresolved issues that keep coming up are those hot topics because you get stuck in the emotional cycle of it versus actually thinking what is it that is causing the issue in the first place? Like, what does resolution actually look like? We’re not, we are not necessarily delving into those spaces when we’re feeling emotional.
And so let’s say that you are the flushed cheek woman, so you are the mom that’s sitting there feeling that anger because you know, they’re just stepping over the toys instead of cleaning them up, or they’re just not engaging when the kids are trying to kill each other and you just, you know, direct that anger towards your, your partner.
What would you suggest that we do in those moments? One thing that I always recommend, and this is for anybody, is that. When you feel, uh, like the emotions heen, where you know there’s this really emotional, intense response that you have, try and avoid going into a conversation in that state. And the reason why I suggest that, and I’m gonna get a little bit sciencey here, is that we are activating a part of our brain.
When we become that emotional, that actually shuts down the part that we need to be able to. A conversation that is, um, succinct or logical or gets across the message that we actually want to be heard. Yeah. I call that lizard brain. You’re going into kind of your primal brain, that kind of Exactly. I, I see it with my kids lizard brain, but I think I, I go into lizard brain a lot as well.
Okay. So step one is to actually. Engage in that conversation when you’re flushed and red cheeked, cuz you’re probably not gonna be reasonable. Exactly. Uh, but it’s also important to acknowledge that response that you’re having and just flag with your partner. You know, there’s something that I really wanna talk about.
Let’s pick a time so that one, you are not dismissing how you’re feeling, but two, you are trying to create that space to be. Go and have that conversation that is so important for you. Okay, so then let’s fast track too. Your kids are in bed and you’ve both had a glass of wine and you’re now at that moment before Netflix comes on where you are gonna broach the conversation.
And so you lean in and say to your partner, Honey, I just wanna have a talk to you about something. And usually you get the eye roll or you get the sense of an eye roll. , help me have this conversation right now. Well, even just flagging that with your partner and saying, This is actually really important to me and I just need you to understand that this is how it affects me.
So using language where it’s about the effect on you versus pointing the finger and, and kind of blaming or saying it’s, you are not doing this, you’re not doing that. I guess if you can flip it around and say, I just need to let you know, I kind of get, I get frustrated when I see this. If that makes sense.
So you’re not necessarily negatively blaming or labeling the stuff that’s not happening. You’re talking it from the perspective, from the perspective of, this isn’t happening and I just need to let you know that this is how it’s affecting me. Okay. That’s a real, Instead of the, you know, you always do this, you always do that.
It’s you trying to be that little bit more vulnerable. Exactly. Okay. I think being able to do that as well just means that the, your partner’s not gonna be defensive. They’re not gonna be on the back foot and provide justifications of why they do what they do. When you’re talking about it from the aspect of the impact that it has on you.
So then talking about couples that are at a point where, Are literally thinking that they’re wanting to divorce each other or, or wanting to separate. What would you say to a couple that presents to you that says, I think I’m done here. Um, you know, I don’t know if I’m done, but I feel like I’m done. How, how do you coach someone through that very, you know, very traumatic period one.
Big thing that I think is really important is that what we need to make sure we don’t do is make big decisions when we, when we’re in a heightened emotional place, such as lockdown, such as a period, a timeframe like this. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, the idea that, um, you wanna make a life changing decisions under du.
It’s not necessarily the best head space to be in to make such big calls purely because of the influence that such a stressful situation can have on not only how we see ourselves, like how we see our partners, but also how we see ourselves and how we see the world. And so how would a couple then navigate if they’re feeling like that and say, coming out the other side of lockdown, how would you suggest they navigate those two weeks, four weeks, three months, That they’re kind of like, Okay, we’re not making the decision, but we’re still living in hell with each other.
Hmm. I think that’s where it’s really important that, um, you know, if you can reach out and just get support through that process. And it might not necessarily be couple’s therapy. It could be you engaging with, um, a therapist or, you know, having a close, like talking to a friend that you know, you respect and contrast just to help you through the, the situation or the environment until the time is right to be able to have those, um, you know, bigger conversations and potentially then make the decision.
When you do have couples that are in that state and do make that decision, are there any hard and fast rules that they should follow? Such as before you make the decision spend, you know, a month living separately or, or anything like that that you have found has been helpful to navigate that period? It really is a very.
Situation. I mean, it really depends on what has brought the couple to that point where they’re questioning whether they wanna be together or not. How long has it been going on for? What are the, the issues that they, they can’t resolve? Um, you know, what’s the investment within the relationship, be it from a kid’s perspective to property.
So there’s so many variables that you need to consider before you provide, you know, the, the kind of the strategies or the support to help that particular couple. Um, I would always suggest though, it doesn’t matter what the situation may be that you wanna feel like before you make that decision, that you have tried wholeheartedly to make the commitment that you made to each other work.
And how would you know that you tried wholeheartedly? I mean, uh, is that a personal thing or is there something that you kind of work with couples? To get to the bottom of, how hard are you really trying in this relationship? I guess going back to the basics of what is it that you’re actually, in terms of your relationship, what is it that that’s the problem?
What’s going wrong? Um, you know, what do you value? Is it fixable? Is it a compatibility thing? What I always suggest to a couple is that you wanna make sure that because you’re going in this together, it’s a commitment that you’ve made together. It has to be a fair process. You allow and give your partner the opportunity to discuss, to potentially change, to, to make it work with you.
Because when a, when a relationship is breaking down, I mean we also need to think about, there’s always dual responsibility. Yeah. So it all to fix it, there has to be kind of dual responsibility as well. Yeah. It’s almost like we went in, you know, we came into this together. We’ve gotta work through this together and come to their outcome together if we can.
Exactly. Experience wise as well. The couples that can do that and navigate the process of actually ending it, like if it do, if it’s, it is impossible and it won’t, they can’t fix it. Couples that actually work together to end it and do it amicably tend to have much happier, healthier relationships following the breakdown of, of that relat.
Yeah, look, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it with friends and, and family. You know, my hat goes off to couples that are able to, what is it? Consciously, uncouple, , uh, . I have so much respect for them. I, I do think it’s amazing. Let’s talk about something positive for a moment. , I’ve heard you say that stressful or traumatic events can bring some couples closer together, you know, almost.
Riling against a common threat, um, even if it’s just temporary, whereas for others, it may drive them apart. Perhaps it’s revealing existing vulnerabilities in the relationship or maybe just their different coping styles. What do you mean by different coping styles? So taking into account individual differences.
We all manage. And uncertainty in varied ways. Now, there’s lots of different ways in which we can cope and sometimes, you know, I don’t know whether you have friends or people that you know that are completely avoidant. So when they, they’re hit with stress, what they do is they just completely detach from the situation and they keep themselves busy with things that are totally unrelated.
Okay. So kind of like sweeping it under the rug, The problem, just ignoring it. Okay. Yep, exactly. Um, then there might be people that, um, they like to actively cope with stress. So when I say actively, it means that they’re actually looking into the problem. They’re facing into the difficulty, and they’re thinking about what can be done proactively to try and manage whatever the uncertainty or the stress may be.
My husband. Okay. Yep. Good? Yep. Yep. Overthinkers. . Yes. Um, but there’s also people that. Um, they seek support, so they, for them to manage whatever’s going on, they need to anchor into the people around them to help them through that situation. Oh, and that would be me with all my girlfriends that I have to make 50,000 phone calls when I’m stressing about something.
Oh, I love those three examples. Okay. Yes. So what can happen is that if you have a couple that have extremely different styles of managing stress, um, clearly they’re gonna be on different pages in terms of how they, how they handle things. Now, sometimes it can be complimentary and sometimes it can actually be conflictual.
Yeah, I imagine if you’ve got the sweep it under the carpet person that, you know, pushes the stress, uh, away and ignores it and then you’ve got the overthinker, that would probably be a pretty good combination, cuz you know, they’ll, they’ll balance each other out. Right? Exactly. Exactly. It’s kind of like the example of, let’s say, for example, hygiene matters.
Like, you know, where the, you might have someone who’s really nonchalant about washing their hands, but then you’ve got someone who’s really pedantic. It’s about, you know, Finding that balance of not being too over the top, but also making sure that you are, you know, you’ve got good practices in place so that you’re not affecting or infecting other people.
Tell me, why is it that you can spend more time with someone such as in lockdown, yet feel further apart or disconnected from them? That’s actually a pretty common thing that does come up in therapy, um, especially now because you know, people are, Spending so much time together, but they don’t necessarily feel like it’s good time.
Um, one thing that can affect that is that. It doesn’t matter how much time you spend with someone, if you feel like you are unheard or you know, you’re unacknowledged, unappreciated, unloved, um, obviously that that means that, you know, there’s a disconnect somewhere. And what do you suggest we do if we are feeling disconnected from our partner?
What are a couple of little hacks or strategies we can follow to just reconnect a little bit? I’d like to use a little, the analogy of. Thinking about kind of micro moments of love on a daily basis. So are there things that you could do to like, to show your partner that you appreciate them? Are there little kind of kind gestures of affection that you can provide?
Um, just to show that one you care, one that you’re present and you know, you can see that they are there in terms of hacks or little kind of practical things. I always suggest to couples get creative and think about how you can spend quality connected time together by doing stuff that’s either fun, um, you know, that makes you laugh, that you are sharing moments so that you know you can actually, um, not get to know each other again, but potentially take it back to where it used to be in the beginning where there was that lustfulness where you, you had fun together.
There was a playfulness when, when you were connecting, um, and getting to know each. . So, you know, just finding those little moments you can have a giggle about or have a laugh about. I mean, even just sharing a Netflix show that’s, you know, a funny show together. I, I , I just might lay on the couch and have a snuggle.
That to me is a lovely moment of connection. And it’s so simple. Exactly. It doesn’t need to be grand. Like even, you know, cooking together, reading a book together. They’re all really lovely shared moments. Um, it’s not about, you know, the grand gestures of jewelry and big holidays. It’s the day to day stuff that really matters.
Yeah. I think we can often push these ideas out into the future, Oh, when I’ve got more money and I can afford to go on a big holiday together, that’s when we’ll do it. Or, you know, even date night in a month’s time. But I really like this idea that, you know, there’s no time like the present and particularly when people are.
Down or, or lock down laws easing, you’ve still got that extra time to spend together. Can you just carve out a few magic moments? Exactly. I’ve, I’ve got a bit of a fun kind of, um, example that I like clients to put together. And what I say is you get a jar, a bowl of some sort, and you each write an activity on it.
Um, you know, really random, simple activity that you would love to do together, and you put a price limit. It might be 20 bucks, it might be 50 bucks. And each week, or each time that you get to spend that kind of quality date time together is that you put your hand in and you pluck it out. And then you’ve got a bit of a fun, creative activity to do together that’s keeping things fresh and you know, constantly moving.
Oh, I love this idea. And you could even just do it for something around the home. So it could even be things like a 10 minute foot massage, um, you know, a nice. Dinner cooked for me or something like that. You could make it stuff that, that doesn’t even have to be out and about and stuff that can, you can do on the spot.
Exactly. I think that’s a great idea and that that’s a great example of just that little bit of magic. Adding a bit of fun. I know I’ve heard a suggestion before as well to even just go and sit in a different part of the house and it’s so silly, but have you got a balcony. Or have you got a chair at the front or at the back or upstairs or downstairs or wherever it is, and just sit in a different spot rather than that same spot on the couch that’s got a big di in it and a couple of chocolate stains on it.
All right, look, one, one parting tip for those couples that are struggling. Through Covid. What would you say is a, a parting tip for us moms to help get our marriages through this? I think, um, being aware of, you know, where you’re at, being honest with yourself in terms of how you feel about things and if, is it something that’s going on within your relationship that you’re struggling with or is it stuff that’s going on for you?
And you know, if it is stuff that is within the relationship that you’re struggling with, thinking about. What sort of conversations do you wanna start having with, with partner? You know, what is it that you wanna highlight so that when it comes back to what I originally said around you have to do things mutual.
This isn’t about you trying to fix things or make things better by yourself. This is about being a team and you know, trying to resolve whatever the issues may be together because you’re a couple, you’re a partnership, you’re in it together. Oh, that’s such wise advice, especially around this time where we are, you know, we are struggling in this, what people are calling a crisis.
So let’s be a team. Let’s get through this together and you know, keep that love alive rather than. Creating a crisis within our own home as well. Exactly. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Emma, for coming on today. Some great tips and I’m definitely gonna go home and hug him a little bit tighter tonight. Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Recent Comments